Ladies, Girls or Guys?
February 19th, 2009 © by Susan Swartz
I notice that President Obama is a “guys” type. He uses the genderless collective term “guys,” to address the men and women of the White House Press Corps. At an inaugural ball he greeted his supporters, in both gowns and tuxedos, with “Thank you, guys.”
The last time I flew the Continental flight attendant addressed the planeload of passengers as “guys.” Our workout instructor at the gym calls us “guys” even though there’s not a man on a spinning bike.
“Guys,” however, does have its detractors. For some it’s too informal. For some women, even though “guys” has morphed into genderless usage it started out solidly male and still doesn’t sound inclusive. When you think about it, there is no female-based word that’s come to cover both sexes. Except for maybe “hottie.”
A university professor of gender studies avoids “guys.” Walking into her class she’s more apt to say “Hi, gang.” Another feminist professor I know says “Y’all,” but she’s from Texas. “Gang” is fine with me. So is “y’all.” And so is “guys.” If I’m at a table of all women at a restaurant I’d much rather be greeted by “Hi, guys,” than “Hi, girls.”
“Girls” has a suspicious history for those with a long-time feminist sensitivity to the politics of language. “Girls” was not an aware or respectful way to address adult women. How could you be a full grown, full bodied self-supporting family-providing tax payer and still be a girl? Girl sounded diminutive, unformed, less worthy, second sex-like. And yet it seems to have new acceptance.
There was Meryl Streep accepting her award for best actress from the Screen Actors Guild and complimenting the other nominees, saying she was “So proud of us girls.”
Meryl? “Girls”? Truth is, it depends on who’s using the term. Woman to woman, “girls” can be sweetly affectionate. Mickey Rourke couldn’t get away with calling the likes of Meryl and Kate “the girls.” On the other hand, if Meryl Streep had said she was “so proud of us guys” that would have just been confusing.
Activist and author Gloria Feldt is part of a group called Women, Girls, Ladies which blogs about issues important to feminists of different generations. Only occasionally do they fuss about the language, she said, and with each other they tend to use the terms “ladies” or “gals.”
My daughters, who are in their 30s, favor the term “ladies.” For them “ladies” doesn’t sound as fussy and entitled as it can to some of my generation. But I’d rather be a “lady” than a “girl.” The same with a friend who teaches middle school. She calls her students “ladies and gents,” and uses the collective “guys.” But no girls, no way.
Okay, but when Hillary Clinton was running for the presidential nomination she said “I’m your girl.” When the poetic, eloquent Maya Angelou endorsed Clinton she called Hillary “my girl.” When I speak of the women closest to me I call them my “girlfriends.” And when we go out to celebrate each other’s birthdays it’s a definite Girls Nights Out.
When our women’s studies group was in Guatemala a Mayan guide started out calling us “girls” and we suggested alternatives, like “women” or “mujeres.” How about “feministas”? He ended up herding us through the jungle with “Vamonos, Womans.”
Tags: Juicy_Tomatoes, ladies_girls_women, President_Obama, Susan_Swartz
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February 20th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I don’t like “Guys.” It has bugged me for some years now to have a waitress or waiter come to my table and say, “So, are you guys ready to order?” #1, I am not a guy. #2, I am an informal human, but really, I don’t want a kid addressing me as a guy. It is just weird. When I am addressing a room of women when I speak or I’m giving a class, I often say, “Ladies… Hey, ladies… Okay, let’s start now.” I’m not crazy about it, but ‘women’ is sort of too sanitary sounding. I’m at a trade show as a I wriote this, working with two women in their early 30s. I always think of myself as the ‘older broad’ or the ‘nutty dame’. Something that sounds like it would come out of Frank Sinatra’s mouth. (And I am totally neutral on him, so I have no idea where that comes from.) But one of the guys? Forget it!
February 20th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I like questioning words as you do, Susan. Among older women tennis players I hang out with, everyone uses all the different words of address, hey you guys, great going ladies, that’s the way girls, my women!…doesn’t seem to matter among ourselves unless it does to an individual who hates one or another address. Maybe ‘folks’ would do it, or ‘friends’ but sounds more stilted. Who knows. good to bat it around.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:46 am
Dear Susan
We will be GIRLfriends even if we live to be 150!
February 21st, 2009 at 10:58 am
I do NOT like to be referred to as one of a group of “guys,” in fact, it’s a pet peeve. How about a waiter or waitress or teacher simply saying, “hello, everyone,” my name is Stanley or Sally or Mr. Teacher?” For some reason, the phrase “girls night out” doesn’t offend me – perhaps because it suggests a fun-filled – almost harkening back to teenage – opportunity to be with other women. However, I typically say, “woman friend” rather than “girlfriend,” because it’s more descriptive of the reality and sounds fine to me.
Worse than being called a “girl”, as I age – most gracefully of course! – is hearing myself and my husband – or any other older couple and/or single person – described as, “cute.” “Oh, look, they’re so cute!”
February 21st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I hate the “cute,” too. It’s fine for kids and puppies.
As for “guys,” do you ever correct the person??? “hello, everyone” is a good choice.
February 21st, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I’m more apt to comment when I hear “cute” (as you, Susan, say, referring to anyone but pets and kds) than when I’m referred to as a “guy.” I have a similar reaction as Ms. Blevins (above), it feels wierd to have a young person (and it’s often from a young GUY, a waiter) that I hear it. I guess I’m more motivated to educate the usually-young person who calls an older person, “cute” because I think it has an insulting feel where being called a “guy” is kinda wierd but doesn’t have that same insulting ‘feel.’
February 22nd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I really don’t like being addressed as “guy” and I don’t believe it’s genderless any more than I believed “man” or “mankind” was a shortcut for “men and women” — remember this controversy in the early ’70′s which brought language changes to journalism, textbooks, and the like?
I don’t mind “cute,” however. I feel cute sometimes. Being small (4’10″). I don’t find “cute” demeaning.
On my “Don’t call me a little old lady!” post on my sex & aging blog, many women have commented on what they like and hate being called. You might find it interesting:
http://betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-call-me-little-old-lady.html .
February 23rd, 2009 at 10:11 am
In the sports world it’s interesting to me that high school athletics are referred to as boys and girls: as in ‘boys’ basketball or ‘girls’ tennis. But the minute they hit college level they are elevated to men and women. Maybe we could use that break…no more girls after 18. after that women or ladies…oh, please, not ‘gals.’
Although, now that I’m a mature woman (lady?) I no longer immediately bristle at the term ‘girl,’ but rather it depends on who’s saying it and in what context. As for ‘guys,’ well, in a restaurant or other group setting, it makes me feel invisible yet chummy–”just one of the guys.”
February 26th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Y’all or you all is nice, gender free and grammatically correct. Other languages use the second person plural without confining it to a particular geographic region, and sometimes making fun of the speaker.
These language issues don’t bother me nearly as much as they did in the ’70s, but I still don’t like being called a guy or girl, since I am neither.
February 26th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I like being ‘one of the guys’!!
July 11th, 2009 at 7:36 am
I find it offensive to be collectively referred to as “one of the guys”. I don’t’ spend 2 hours getting ready for a night out with my husband just to be called a “guy” by the high school hostess…how rude!! What happened to ‘folks, ‘y’all’, or even just a simple ‘good evening’? …must have disappeared along with ‘please’, ‘thank you’, and ‘pardon me’.
I taught my 5 children and the vendors at my Farmers’ Market that Ma’am and Sir are the appropriate salutations for the general public, not “GUYS”.